Tackling TriDot Workouts: Mav Shuttles, Fartleks, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals, and Cruise Intervals

TriDot Podcast Episode 314

Tackling TriDot Workouts: MAV Shuttles, Fartleks, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals, and Cruise Intervals

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Vanessa Ronksley: Hello everyone, and welcome back to our all of our regular listeners, and for those of you who are new, we are so happy that you are here. I'm Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. And today, I'm joined by Coach Ryan Tibball. Ryan is a rock star coach, and y'all can trust the statement, because he is my very own coach, and I have first-handedly experienced his expertise and have actually achieved things that I never thought possible. He has been coaching with TriDot for over 10 years, and he's also on the business coaching team at TriDot. Now, Ryan is here to help me dig into some of the staple run workouts that live in the TriDot ecosystem. And for each one, we're going to be looking at the interval pattern, the system it stresses, and tips to nail it. If you're a TriDot user, or not, by the end of this podcast, you will have ideas for different run sessions and how to crush them. As usual, we'll start things off with the warm-up question, head into the main set, and wind things down with the cool down, where I will ask Ryan to answer one question from our audience. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm-up.

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the show, Ryan. Always a pleasure to have you on the pod. And the warm-up question that I'm throwing at you is what is your all-time favorite run workout? The one that, you know, puts a smile on your face, and that you get excited about when it pops onto your calendar?

Ryan Tibball: First off, thank you, Vanessa, for the warm introduction. I'm excited to be back here on the podcast. To answer that question, I think the one that immediately comes to mind is the Decreasing Intervals, and the reason why I like those is it starts off with that bigger interval, and then it is a pretty minimal rest, and at the same time, the future intervals that go further along, they become half, they get cut in half, and it's like, wow, this is great. This is cut in half. And yet, you still find yourself digging just as hard in those intervals. In some sense, it almost imitates even race day, in a sense of running through an aid station, you're decreasing your intervals, maybe, through that, and you have a very short rest period. So I really like those when I see them pop up, and they're just a lot of fun to me. And then, obviously, you get to run the rest out in Zone 2, so even better.

Vanessa Ronksley: I knew you were going to say that one, because I know that's your favorite. And I know you always get excited to put that one on my calendar, when I request some kind of a run, so I know that's your favorite. And I, honestly, I do think that all of the run workouts are your favorite, because you like running so much.

Ryan Tibball: A little bit. Just a little bit.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah. So running is not my favorite. I do love it, but it's not my favorite. But in terms of the run workouts, I have to say I am a glutton for punishment. So I like Threshold Intervals. I love long, hard, intense intervals. So that is my favorite. The longer the better. I like to get my heart rate up sky high. I like to try and keep appropriate form when I'm revving the engine at a high capacity. So that one is my favorite. I know it doesn't, probably doesn't, top the list for most people, but yeah, that's what it is for me. So we are super pumped to hear what our audience has to say. So please find us on YouTube, or Spotify, in the community, TriDot Community, in Circle, anywhere that you want to interact with us. Please let us know what is your favorite run workout to do? We are super pumped to hear what you have to say. So let's hear it.

Announcer: Let's go.

Vanessa Ronksley: MAV Shuttles, Fartleks, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals, and Cruise Intervals. These are the run workouts that we are going to dissect, today, to bring you, our audience, the big ole ‘why’. I don't know about you, but when I understand the reasoning behind a workout, there is greater intention, which is going to ultimately lead to better execution and bigger progress. So for those of you who are watching on YouTube, we will be showing you examples of workouts that appear in a TriDot athlete’s calendar. But please know that every person's workout is going to look different, in terms of how long and how many efforts are prescribed, because this is part of how TriDot ensures that people with different abilities are prescribed different sessions for them to be successful, and more importantly, to reduce their risk of injury. So just keep that in mind. When you see a picture of the workout, it might look different than what you have on your calendar. But that's the beauty of TriDot. We personalize everybody's training to enhance their experience and allow them to progress at the rate that they're supposed to progress at. So Ryan, here, we have a workout that feels like part track session, part playground game. It's so much fun. It's super fun. Do you know which one I'm talking about?

Ryan Tibball: I think MAV shuttles.

Vanessa Ronksley: Absolutely. Yes, it is MAV Shuttles. It's kind of like a playground. You have to find a special place to go to do it. It's high intensity, it's fun. There's ups, there's downs, it's all kinds of things. So please tell us, what is the interval pattern for MAV Shuttles, and what system of the body is this workout supposed to stress?

Ryan Tibball: All right, yes, I love this. And before I get into the full description of that interval pattern and what we're trying to stress, here, let me emphasize, guys, that the really big important thing here, when it comes to running and getting ready for any of your runs, is emphasizing the proper warm-up and the dynamic mobility. And the great thing about the TriDot and RunDot platform is the fact that they're actually -- in the warm-up, you click that warm-up, there are very specific dynamic, mobility, and running drills that are really great to developing and, actually, activating those muscles, and developing that proprioception, and getting things ready, and revved, and pumped, so you can be successful in your run workouts. Again, with that technique work, that you do in that that warm-up, will translate directly into your runs, every single time. And as Vanessa said, here, too, is that your workouts are personalized. So meaning, depending upon your fitness, your progression, the optimization, again, your workout's going to be personalized from the get go. And so diving into this MAV Shuttles to begin with, the number of shuttles, the number of intervals in any other type of run workout, could be fully dependent upon where you're at in your running journey, your triathlon journey. So now, specifically, getting into MAV Shuttles, the, the interval pattern is very, very short, and it's very high intensity. And when I say high intensity, specifically, I'm talking Zone 6. And these Zone 6 efforts are followed by a very short recovery. So 20 seconds of work followed by 20 seconds of recovery. And typically, you'll see, do 6 or 7 of those in a row, right off the bat. Now, everybody, like I said, is different. So you might have one set of 6 to 7 intervals, or you might have three. It just depends where you're at. And so the whole goal in these MAV Shuttles. And by the way, for those that don't know what MAV Shuttle stands for, is Maximum Aerobic Velocity.

Vanessa Ronksley: I was hoping you were going to put that in there.

Ryan Tibball: Yes, of course. MAV Shuttles have multiple effects on the body at the high level. MAV Shuttles help build and recruit those fast twitch muscles and power. In other words, it can really touch on those nerves. And because of that, it has a huge neurological and muscular impact, from firing off those muscles fast. So I digress. Remember what I said about that importance of an important warm-up, guys? This is the one. You better do it. You better get those warm-ups in and have your body primed and ready, because you don't want to pull a hammy or anything, so that we don't want that for you. Now, get those warm-ups in, get that done appropriately, so you're ready to fire off as quick as you can. And I might talk about this in a little bit, but we'll just leave it right there.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. Okay. That's awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Now, I think we love to hand out tips on this podcast, because we are hoping to improve everyone's execution and elevate their performance, regardless of where they're coming from. So hit us with some Tibball’s Tips for MAV Shuttles.

Ryan Tibball: Tibball’s Tips, that's a new one. I like it. I might have to take that. Thank you.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah.

Ryan Tibball: Typically, I like to do these in a repeatable area. I know you mentioned something about that at the very start. And I have done this in various places, where, there's a little section of street near my neighborhood, that I know I have a starting point and end point. I know exactly where those should be in 20 seconds. So it gives me a point of reference, and I'm going, all right, hammer away. Get to that point. And you're just about done, or done, once you hit it. I've done them in parking lots, in my church parking lot, I've done them. So it's one of those places, you pick a place and stick to it, so that way you can sit there and repeat it back and forth. That's a great tip in doing these and being able to repeat these and be consistent, and that's probably the more important thing. So, one thing, another tip I'd like to point out about these, is that it's very important that in the first couple of shuttles, don't try to blast off like a rocket. Again, you are about to fire off so heavy and hard, but you got to be careful here, guys. You want to make sure you're primed and ready, so that warm-up. But getting into the intervals is another part of it. So show some restraint. Go at it with that 90%-ish effort, and remember, you're trying to fire off those muscles. You don't want to pull anything, like I mentioned. A couple of other tips I'd like to mention is your Garmin, or any other compatible device, TriDot will push this workout over, and so it's going to signal you, at least I know my Garmin will. It'll start to do a little countdown. And the cool part about that is it's soon as that countdown starts, I start revving the engine and start rolling into that next MAV Shuttle. I mean, everybody wants to score a 100 on their TrainX, so this is the way to do it, guys. And lastly, and this comes down to technique, guys, increase that cadence. Do not over-stride. Don't be trying to stride in order to go faster. No, increase the cadence, and use your body, and lean forward as much as you can to keep that cadence rolling very, very quickly. The goal isn't try to be lengthening out any strides, here, guys. It is using your body in order to fall, and move forward, and keep the feet moving, and get that speed from that. So body awareness, body position, is so, so important. Lastly, the recovery. Don't come to an abrupt stop. Don't do that. Roll into a slow jog, and then you might even be able to roll into maybe a 5-second walk, and then you're ready to rev it back up. So focus on your breathing. Maybe if you have a bottle with you, grab it for a quick sip. But do those things and get ready for that next shuttle to take off.

Vanessa Ronksley: That was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of those amazing little tips. This is something that is amazing about Ryan, is he has so many different tips, because he's so experienced in all of these sessions, but also as a run coach, as well. So thank you for sharing that with us. I really appreciate it. Now, MAV Shuttles are sharp, they're technical, they have short bursts. You mentioned quick turnover, not over-striding, and that often requires a lot of focus. So next up is the Fartlek. This one here is a little bit different. It's about rhythm shifts, it's about speed and short recoveries that definitely keep you honest. So tell us about this workout, Ryan. What pattern does an athlete follow for this one, and why?

Ryan Tibball: That pattern, it's obviously a little bit longer. So typically, a Fartlek is anywhere from about 3 to 4 minutes in duration. And it does have a focus, a very specific focus, in the particular Zone that you're trying to train in, and I'll talk about that in just a moment. But typically, 3 to 4 minutes in duration, with a 60-second jog. And that's an active jog. You're trying to be active, there, and keep that jog going. Maybe, initially on, you might consider a brisk walk in between, for that 60-second, but as you get stronger in your aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity develops, you can be able to start really jogging, and intentionally jogging, in between, for that 60 seconds in between each one of those intervals. So every athlete, again, like I mentioned, may have 3, may have 4, may have 5, may have 8 or 9, I've seen upwards of, depending upon the athlete. So that's a typical interval pattern that's set up for that.

Vanessa Ronksley: That is awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that. I know that this type of workout has been described as one that you can easily make more fun if you do it with friends. Matt Sommer has talked about this on the podcast before, how to make your training more fun. And one of the sessions that he talked about was actually doing the Fartleks and changing it into a ‘catch me if you can’ type situation, which I really like for this workout. So if you're looking for something to increase the fun in your training, this style of workout is really good for trying to infuse a little bit of fun and maybe do it with your friends. Now, in terms of getting the most value out of the Fartlek session, what tips do you have for athletes, if they're going to complete something like this?

Ryan Tibball: One of my bigger tips is do this on an open road to add variety. You might have some points, as you're running down the road, you say, maybe that light pole down the way, or that light at the corner, or whatever it is, maybe approximately 3 to 4 minutes away, again, use that, and it can make a game of it, like you mentioned earlier with MAVs. Focus on making that last fartlek as strong as your first one. So in other words, don't go out too fast on the first one or two, because again, you might have, again, 4, 5, 6, 9 intervals. And the goal, here, is not to fade in those back ends, but again, not to overcook the front end, because that can tell a story for you. If you fade in those last few, what did you do in the front couple that may have turned the table for you? And something I do want to mention here too, is that with that fartlek you are focusing on that Zone 4, that threshold zone, one of the most productive zones that you can work on. And again, this is your chance for your body to both work in that anaerobic system and recover back in that 60 seconds as quickly as possible, giving your body that opportunity to try to clear that lactic acid as quickly as possible. And it's also fair to say that this is going to definitely test your mental systems in a way, as well, as you get further and deeper into some of those fartleks that you're doing. So a lot of fun stuff with Fartleks. I agree, these are short, they're sweet, but the rest is minimal. And again, it teaches you and gives you an idea, learning your own body and how you recover, quicker or not yet, but know that you will get there.

Vanessa Ronksley: Something that you said that really resonates with me, and I think is a learning tip for everybody, is that we often go out too hard at the beginning of training sessions and, in particular, in race situations. And so you had mentioned that this is testing the mental aspect of your training, and your racing, as well, and that is how do you hold back, just a wee bit, on those beginning sets? Because we have to do that in a race as well, especially when we're all amped up, and have adrenaline flowing, and we're excited. We have to be able to contain that and hold back a little bit, because when we hold back a little bit, we're probably, in a race situation anyways, we're probably going to put out the same effort at Zone 4, if not greater, just because of all that extra adrenaline. So I like looking at this type of workout in that sense, as well. You've got to hold back. You have to be patient. You have to be so patient. And then at the end, when you get to that 7th, 8th, or maybe it's 4, 5, 6, or 7th, 8th, 9th set, then you'll be grateful that you did hold back a little bit. So, yeah, I really appreciate those tips. Now, Fartleks, they're a little bit more spontaneous, they're a little bit more playful. But when you stretch those reps out and hold the effort longer, we're moving into the Threshold Repeats, which is my favorite workout. And I think that we can call this the ‘land of comfortably hard’. I think that these workouts have the biggest variation amongst athletes, in terms of the time and number of repeats, because that depends on where an athlete is in their training cycle, their age, their ability. So for those of you who are watching this, and you're going to see one of the example workouts pop up on the screen, please know that not all Threshold Repeat sessions will look like this, in terms of the duration and number of efforts that are prescribed. So as an athlete that has used this platform for years, I can assure you that when you see Threshold Repeats on your calendar, it's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. And that is just, for me, and I'm the same athlete, so regardless, when it's titled Threshold Repeats, you don't know what's coming. So it really does have a lot of variation when you even compare from yourself to another athlete. So keeping that in mind, Coach Ryan, what is the basic pattern for Threshold Repeats, and what is the purpose here, in terms of the physiological response, we are hoping for?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, this, arguably, is almost the bread and butter of runs, it really is. And these intervals are definitely longer than Fartleks, typically. Depending upon the athlete, it could be 6, 7, 8, or 9 minutes long. And that's a whole box of chocolates, like you mentioned. It's like, I see Threshold Intervals on my calendar, and you click on it, it's like, “Oh boy, here we go. 3 x 9 today.” Again, these are longer intervals, and you're going to have about a 2- to 3-minute recovery in between each one of those at a slow jog, Zone 2. And keep in mind, you're not going to fully recover, but it's definitely going to test your grit, test your ability. And also gives you, we haven't talked even about this, but fueling strategy. It's another way to incorporate that into these intervals, where maybe you can almost treat it like you're racing. You see an aid station every eight minutes, and you have eight minute intervals. This is perfect. You hit that water bottle at eight minutes. Maybe you fuel every 15 to 20 minutes. You can hit a gel in between two or three intervals. So there's a lot of fun things that you can do, within these workouts, to incorporate into your training to translate to race day. So these Threshold Repeats are directly targeting that lactic threshold. And so again, that's like raising your tent pole. You think about that, your functional threshold. You're trying to raise your tent pole with these kinds of workouts, and you're putting yourself under that duration and stress for a little bit longer than doing a Fartlek. And it's very important to build this zone, because as you're building your Zone 4, and it's getting stronger, and you're tolerating that time on feet, 6, 7, 8, 9 minutes longer, you're getting stronger, you're building that endurance that you need when it comes down to racing. So again, such an impactful workout. Now, I'll throw in some practical tips now for executing this. And then again, as you are building your threshold durations, you are also building that mental toughness, that Vanessa just mentioned a second ago. That mental toughness, it's great to practice it, because if you practice it now, in training, it's going to go and translate directly into race day when it's time. So you are about at 80 to 90% of your max heart rate during these intervals. It climbs into there, and yes, it gets difficult on those last couple of minutes, or minute, or 3 minutes, it doesn't matter. But that's your opportunity to get the best out of that particular interval, when you're doing a threshold interval. So use these as building blocks for race day.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, so these are the race day efforts then, like you've described. Now, I have a question about the difference between the recovery period in a fartlek versus the recovery period in a threshold repeat. So what's the difference between those two? Are there differences? Are they different paces? Are there different benefits for the system? Because you said that they're longer for threshold repeats, so is there a difference in how that affects the body, compared to a fartlek?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, absolutely. And obviously, with fartleks, you're not going to get that full recovery, and so you're going to be very limited in that time before you start your next interval. It's 60 seconds in a fartlek, versus a threshold interval, you typically just a little bit longer. Yes, the interval is longer, too. But again, our goal here, in the end, is when you're doing these intervals here, is that you're successful for each and every single one of them. So giving you that 2 to 3 minutes is that opportunity not to just let that recovery willy-nilly go away, but rather take advantage of it. Focus on your breathing, focus on fueling, hydration. And you have that opportunity to do that, so that way your next interval is successful. So that's a really important factor.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, awesome. Now, we've covered a few of the different types of workouts so far. We've covered MAV Shuttles, we've covered the Fartleks and the Threshold Repeats. Now, I'm just curious, is there any benefit to doing any of these, all three, maybe one of the three, on the track, on the road, or on the treadmill? What would your recommendation be for where we execute these different types of sessions?

Ryan Tibball: Many of these can be done on a track. I mean, from a standpoint of maybe it's a softer surface, too. And there is some benefit with a typical track, you get that little bit of positive ground reaction force out of that track. And it's repeatable, so it's a controlled area in many ways. So you have options in pretty much most of your run workouts in TriDot. You have options to go do these things at a track. And measurable, meaning, you can do 800 meters, or 1200 meters, and accomplish the same purpose, as long as you're hitting those paces. Not to say that you should do all your workouts on a track. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it is important to be pounding the pavement, because last time I checked, I haven't run into a single triathlon that happened at a track. So good to get that, you want to get your muscles acclimated and adapted to doing road work, too. So you always have options there. And then versus a treadmill, hey, treadmills are great, too. It is very forgiving, much like a track, and even more forgiving to some ends, too. So again, when maybe outdoors is not conducive for running outdoors, optionally, you do have the indoor treadmill to work on. And keep in mind environment normalization. So again, all your workouts, make sure you choose that right tab on your workouts, indoor/outdoor, and the time, adjust the time, so that way, again, temperature, humidity, and elevation are taken into account for your zones that you're supposed to be working.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, that's an excellent point. Something to remind all athletes to do, who are utilizing the TriDot platform, is to make sure that you update those metrics, because it really affects your pacing, depending on the conditions outside, or if you're doing it inside. Now, in terms of doing-- I have another question. I just have so many questions about the MAV shuttles, or possibly even the fartleks, on the treadmill. I know, for me, when there is any evidence of unstable places to put my feet on the ground, due to snow, or ice, or even, I'm not that bad in the rain. I mean, I'm not a baby, so I'll go running in the rain. But if there's snow or ice, I am not setting foot outside. So if I'm on the treadmill, how do you suggest working in those recovery periods for MAV shuttles, and then for fartleks? I'm just curious if there's a difference between those two.

Ryan Tibball: Oh, well, that's a tough one. But I mentioned earlier, and I have to make sure I repeat it again, but MAV shuttles, you try to avoid the abrupt stopping, because you got 20 seconds. And so of course, on a treadmill, you're kind of slave to the treadmill. It's like, by the time you slow it down, it's time to start the next repeat. And so it makes it really, really hard. If you're lucky enough, you have two treadmills right next to each other. You could use the other one to go recover on real quick, as you keep the other one at high speed. But I have done MAV shuttles on treadmills, and I have just literally straddled the belt, and just was taking big, deep breaths, and I just hop back on, and that's probably your best option, on a treadmill. As far as fartleks go, I mean, you have time to downshift, essentially, the treadmill into a more comfortable jog, that you should be in, during that 60 seconds. It should be enough, and then you can ramp it back up appropriately. You've got time to do that when you're doing Fartleks, or even any other intervals, for that matter.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, that is awesome. I really like hearing you say that, because it's exactly what I do. So hopefully, that's helpful for all the other people out there. Now, we're going to be moving into Intervals. That's the next one that we're going to be talking about. So for Intervals, I know that these are really important in a training cycle, and I know, in TriDot in particular, they show up at a very particular time throughout the training cycle. So can you explain to us, here, what the purpose is of this Interval pattern, and why it is so important for us to be able to do this type of workout?

Ryan Tibball: When you first asked the question about what is my favorite workout, it was a toss-up between those Decreasing Intervals and Intervals here, that we're talking about. Just these are workouts-- Intervals are labeled, straight up, Intervals. And the reason why I like Intervals, one, it's actually working in a bigger zone than most of your other run workouts, with the exception of MAV shuttles. It's working in Zone number 5, guys, your VO2 max zone. And so when you see these come about, yes, they are timed appropriately. They're timed, because when you see those coming, you know, you got a time trial coming next week. And what a great way, and great optimization, that TriDot and RunDot do, is it's optimizing you, and stimulating, getting that stimulus that you need, and prepped for next week. And also, giving not only that, but that mental confidence, “Oh, wait a minute, I can run faster.” Yes, you can. And so intervals are typically 4 or 5 minutes in duration and can be done at the track, 800 to 1200 meters, sometimes you'll see that in your workout. The other cool part about it is, maybe this is why it's my favorite, is I got four minutes to rest in between each one, each effort. I don't know. You get a large amount of rest here, guys, and it's needed. Don't stop, and sit down, and wait for that next one to come about. No, be actively walking, and breathing, and perhaps even focusing on hydration, fueling, if you need it, and get yourself mentally prepared to knock out another Zone 5 effort. Because Zone 5, guys, really uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable, but it stresses on that anaerobic system. This is my bad joke, and I have to say it, guys. Take it or leave it, but you got to listen to it. Your VO2 max zone, it's often described as you're genetically limited. And I'll be honest, most of us don't even reach our genetic potential in our VO2 max zone, so keep trying to go for it. And lastly, just choose your parents wisely, when it comes to your VO2 max zone. There it is. I'm done.

Vanessa Ronksley: Well, I can tell you those intervals, these are the ones where you're living right under the red line. You're still steady and somewhat controlled. But I think that, something that you said is that you have to be mentally tough to execute these intervals. And I think that it's really intense, but then you do get that break, you do get that rest, where you can walk or do whatever you need to do to recover. And these are like, they get your engine revving, they're brutally effective. And they are that indication, as you said, that your time trial is coming.

Ryan Tibball: Your time trial's coming, yeah. And I will add, again, in order to recognize this Zone 5, you can't talk, you don't want to talk. You're really putting it down, you're putting the hammer down. And it is, like you said, very focused. Very focused on your form, your technique, and obviously, your grit into that. And usually, you'll find yourself, maybe in that last minute of that 4-minute interval, feeling like, okay, this is where it's earned. This is where, you do it now, it's happening on race day. You'll do it there.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. So just a quick question about the Intervals. What's the most common pacing mistake that athletes make for this Interval workout?

Ryan Tibball: Overshooting in that first one. You might go out and MAV shuttle pace on accident, just because you're so amped up and ready to go. And you have to really hold yourself back a little bit, right? You want these to be really even, because you're going to have a lot of rest in between each one, but you want to be careful not to overshoot it, here, guys. But also, on top of that, just being confident that you can do it. And that's the other part of this, is developing-- this is an opportunity to develop that mental fortitude, that grit, that confidence in those last couple of minutes of each one of those big intervals like this. And this can translate very well, when you're going out and racing in your 5K, doing your assessment as it's coming, or go to race your 5K. Again, these are just so impactful, so don't skip them.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, right. This is definitely a workout that I will never skip, because I love that intensity factor. I'm sure a lot of the listeners would not be surprised to hear me say that. But I'm also curious about this. Now, this might apply to Threshold Repeats and Intervals-- maybe it applies to all of them. But is there a way to help athletes find this pacing, whether it's Zone 4 or Zone 5, without obsessing over their watch?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah. And I know watches-- sometimes I feel like I want to tell my watch to shut up, Garmin, that kind of thing. But you can go by RPE. You really can. And it's always, and I say this often, it's good to know your RPE and be able to recognize your RPE versus what your watch is telling you, because it helps you learn your body. And so in other words, an RPE for a Threshold Interval could be about a 7 or 8 on a scale of 10. And for Intervals themselves, it's 8, 9, it's a lot higher. So RPE can be a good barometer of things, in case you just, maybe you forgot your watch, maybe your watch died. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that from my athletes. It's like, “Hey, Coach, sorry my watch died, but I did it.” I was like, “I trust you. I know you did.” So again, it's one of those things even, hey, by the way, your systems could die in a race, too. So what are you going to do there? So again, it is sometimes good not to even look at your watch. But as you learn yourself and stuff, RPE is a useful tool to, again, equate it to what's happening on your pacing, your power output, or whatever it is that you're training at.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, I love that you brought up RPE, because I think that it can even shift. Your Rate of Perceived Effort can shift, depending on how much you improve and how your physiological system responds to the training that you're putting onto it. Because I used to remember, when I first started running, I used to think my RPE was I felt like I was dying in Threshold Repeats. I was pushing myself, and it felt extremely uncomfortable, and I didn't like it. And I was like, well, that's Zone 4 for me. But now that I've had a lot more experience in the mental aspect of the training, and I know that when I felt like I was dying in Zone 4, that wasn't even close to my limit. Now, I know that that feeling I have to chase is in Zone 5. And so I think that in terms of what you think you're capable of, that might shift a little bit. I don't know. Has that ever happened to you?

Ryan Tibball: Absolutely. And it could shift for many reasons. It could shift because maybe your sleep has been poor, your nutrition's been poor, et cetera. If you're not fueled up right to begin with, I mean, things can feel harder. There's no question about that. Hydration, that's a huge factor. And so RPEs are, with a grain of salt, Rate of Perceived Exertion, it's a helpful tool. It's also making sure that your RPE does match up with how your watch is, what is your watch telling you? So pay attention to it.

Vanessa Ronksley: I absolutely agree on that. So these Intervals, the ones that we were just talking about, they have given us these sharp, somewhat targeted efforts. But some workouts flip the script a little bit. And we're going to be talking about your favorite workout, here. Tell us about the magic of Decreasing Intervals and how you're asked to finish shorter efforts the deeper that you get into the session?

Ryan Tibball: Great question. Yes, they are my favorite, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, because the length of intervals literally decreases as the workout goes on. And they decrease and cut in half. And for whatever reason, I kind of like that piece of it. But for example, your first couple, or maybe, just depends, again, on your optimization, your personalized programming, you might only have one 6-minute interval at the front end, or you might have two, or you might have three. And then just know that your future ones are going to get cut in half down to 3 minutes, and then your future ones, after that, are going to cut down to 90 seconds. In these, if you have a 6-minute interval, in duration, you do follow that with an extremely slow jog to recover in between each interval. This is, in many ways, is very similar to racing, in some instances, when you're seeing the aid stations. And then the next intervals, we come into the next set, could be 3 minutes in duration with the same amount of recovery, 60 seconds. And so now, your work period has gotten shorter, but yet your rest period has stayed the same. And then, you go into another set that has 90 seconds of work but still 60 seconds of recovery between each interval. Now, a common mistake I do see is when athletes decide to blow up that 90-second intervals, and they end up in a much bigger zone than they belong in. So you have to, as a Coach, it begs the question, did you sandbag that first 6-minute, those other 6-minute intervals? Did you do something wrong there? It's a learning, guys. Perfection is never needed, but learn from that, and go, “Well, I had too much in the tank on those 90 seconds.” So that just gives you an idea that maybe you can push harder in those first six minutes. So, that's probably one of the best training tips I can mention, regarding these, is your last intervals should be as strong, but that they're not supposed to necessarily be stronger. So you have to question, did I go hard enough in the beginning?

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, so this is something that I really struggle with, actually, is I’m that athlete who likes to speed up the shorter the intervals get. Because I’m like, “Hey, it’s only 90 seconds. Anyone could do that for 90 seconds.” Is there a disadvantage to doing that? What’s the harm in getting faster as those intervals get shorter?

Ryan Tibball: Good question. I love this one, because we're going to go into training stress. And you're normalizing your training load and being able to see that NTS that everybody sees, like, “Why is my NTS going so much higher than what was prescribed? And how does that affect things later on?” It's that residual stress that you can end up starting to accumulate, and you may not want, because what's happening the next day? I mean, you could end up with hard bike, and you're wondering why your legs are so fried. It's because you cooked yourself on the Decreasing Intervals the day before. It's like, “I felt really strong. I did these last 3 or 4 repeats at 90 seconds, but I went into Zone 5.” It has a residual effect, guys. Then you turn around, and your future workouts might suffer from it. So that's why. Don't do that.

Vanessa Ronksley: I know. It's just so hard to hold back. But I think, in this kind of a situation, it's really hard to stop once you get started. So I think the key is to not get to that point, where you're going too fast at the end, and you have to ask yourself consciously, what will future me like better? Will future me like the satisfaction of knowing that I got faster? No one cares. No one knows that you got faster as you went on. But the next day, or when future me is doing that bike workout the next day, future me might not like the outcome of not being able to push as hard on the bike. You're always so right and full of wisdom. Okay, so how do you coach athletes to execute this session then, so that the benefit is truly maximized?

Ryan Tibball: Set that mental attitude right to begin with. And that is maybe why I do like these so much. It's like, I know that my first 6-minute intervals need to be strong, really strong, but disciplined in staying in my Zone 4 where I belong. If I finish those last 90 seconds, and I'm just as strong, that does huge confidence boost, guys. And that's what I like about it, is that, again, if I went really strong at the first ones, and I was just as strong on the back end, but not overly shooting it, I've done what I needed to do today. Your time will come to run at those harder intervals, in those intervals that are Zone 5. Don't worry about that. So just focus on what's at hand. Have fun with those first 6 minutes and make those your bigger focus, and then again, the rest will follow well.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, I think the thing that I love the most that you said about that, right there, is having the intention before you start. So knowing that it is easier, potentially, to go faster at the end than it is at the beginning, and so to be prepared for that, and to practice what you're going to implement into that session. I think that's so valuable. And I think that anytime we approach any session with an intention, it makes it that much easier to execute with greater-- I don't want to say perfection, but to get those higher TrainX scores. Because when we do, we know that when we adhere to our training program that's prescribed to us, the outcome is in our best interest. We don't want to overdo those sessions, because that's not in our best interest, for whatever reason, whether it's leading yourself down the road to injury, or not being able to execute your future sessions and getting the maximum training benefit out of the next couple of days. So I think it's really important to be mindful about that. So thank you so much for that reminder. I know that these Decreasing Intervals definitely test you in an interesting way, that we've described, whether it's physiological, or whether it's mental. And that's comes from the patience and the mindset that you have to have to go into those. Now, Cruise Intervals, on the other hand, these ones test your ability to stay steady, and they're a little bit sneaky, because each rep can feel manageable. But by the end, you've built up this mountain of threshold work. So, Ryan, talk to us about what are Cruise Intervals, and why we do them?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, these are fun. I feel like I say grit building for all of them, but gosh, they are.

Vanessa Ronksley: That’s running. Running is grit building.

Ryan Tibball: Yes. We're here, talking about all these intervals, we are speaking on the high end of some of our run workouts, today. But Cruise Intervals are going to be longer than Fartleks, of course, and typically, slightly shorter than most Threshold Repeats that you'll see. But they, usually, are right around that 6-minute duration. Now, most of your Threshold Repeats are, most of them, around 7, 8, 9. I did mention 6; occasionally, they are there. But specifically, on Cruise Intervals, they're about 6 minutes. But they're also followed by a very short rest at 60 seconds. And that rest is meant to be done at a very slow jog. It is there to-- essentially, I like to think it's there for timing aid stations, too, again, I go back to race day. It's like you're going through an aid station, you might be through a slow jog, or a really fast, brisk walk, and you're preparing for that next interval to make it a quality interval. So not only you physically preparing by having more hydration, fueling, you're breathing, and really trying to get that CO2 back out of you, and trying to let that body process that lactic acid, too, and getting you prepped and ready to hammer out that next Cruise Interval. I like to say, envision yourself on race day. What would you be doing? And these kind of serve in that way, in many aspects.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. So how short should these recoveries actually feel? You said they're short, but how should they feel?

Ryan Tibball: They do feel short. They really do. As your fitness continues to improve, your aerobic fitness and your anaerobic fitness continue to improve, and your body's able to process that lactic acid quicker, and you become more fit and stuff, they should start to feel better. And I think in the end, consistency is king. And if you're consistently hitting your sessions, and there's so many other things we can talk about that helps with being consistent, of course, recovery, nutrition, all the other things that a coach can definitely help you out with. So, yeah, I can't say enough about these, but the fact is, is that rest period is, it's going to go by quick, guys, and you need to maximize your best in that rest period through that, and really focus on being intentional through that rest, and breathing, and et cetera, doing those things I mentioned.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is probably the most misleading title of a workout ever, because when you think of the word ‘cruise’, it's like, “Oh, I'm going to go cruise down on this big ship, and I'm going to have a cocktail in my hand. I might go down a water slide or whatever.” But this is no cruise, people. This is no cruise. And so I'm wondering if you have any mental tricks to keep these smooth and maintain effort all the way through to the end.

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, I kind of look at cruise is to set the mindset, “I am cruising.” This is, potentially, once I get into this, I do feel uncomfortable; it's maintainable, though. And I put that mental in my head, “This is uncomfortable, but it's maintainable.” I know I'm in Zone 4. I see it on my watch, I feel it. And again, I equate this back to racing and just building that mental fortitude, that grit, that physical feeling, as well. And again, that's what it's about. And one thing I will say is, guys, we all talk to each other, but we seem to only talk in our own heads. And when I talk about that positive attitude, what I'm talking about is you actually physically saying out loud, during a Cruise Interval, “You got this. Push. Keep going. Move.” Keep the words positive. You know what, it's hard to say anything negative to yourself while you're out running, or biking, for that matter. So when you're saying it out loud, more than likely it's going to be positive. That's probably one of my favorite things to do when I'm out there on my own.

Vanessa Ronksley: I love that. I've never done that before, so I think I might have to test that one out. The positive shout out to yourself, when you’re going.

Ryan Tibball: Yes, absolutely.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. Now, you've given us some mental tips, here. Do you have any practical tips on how to execute this workout so that these Cruise Intervals are a really effective part of an athlete's training cycle?

Ryan Tibball: First off, fuel, guys. You got to fuel up, right? And that goes for any of these workouts that we've been talking through. But these are long. They're not super long, they're not thresholds, but they're really close to it. And fueling is going to be a key part of prepping yourself before you even get started. And then I do mention, obviously, earlier on, muscle activation and doing the drilling to reinforce body position and actual physical movement while running, to maintain posture and form. So these are, again, when you're coming at these intervals, like Cruise Intervals, for example, be intentional from the get go, before you even set foot outside, and hit those things that you're supposed to be doing, as far as what I've mentioned already. Outside of that, again, keep up, and I've already talked the mental side-- mentally prepare yourself and be ready to hammer it out and get after it.

Vanessa Ronksley: I'm curious, because I know that you're the type of person who has amazing posture and form, and you're able to maintain that throughout the entire session. And I've even seen you maintain it when you're hurting really bad at the end of a race. So can you tell us about what do we have to say to ourselves when we're tired and our posture and our form might be deteriorating? Are there any cues that you might give yourself, or any of your athletes, that will allow them to continue on with their posture and form?

Ryan Tibball: Really good question. One of the things I do, and I do take advantage, is during the rest period-- even, I've done it during the interval itself. This is a very common error, for many, is they tighten up. They get tight. Their hands are tight, their shoulders crawl up by their ears, and they're so wound up and tight, that, yeah, their form starts to fall apart. They're no longer bouncy, not taking advantage of a lot of things. Their cadence slows down. A lot of things just fall apart. And you have to, literally, press a reset button in yourself and say, all right. Maybe during that rest period, you focus back on, “Let me drop my shoulders, drop my hands down by my side, and then bring them back up, and get back into form.” Doing those things can help you, again, it all translates to race day. So while you practice, practice, practice, you can check in, do a body awareness check in, and go, drop the shoulders, drop the hands. Now relax, take some big, deep breaths, and then continue on, keep moving forward, and re-engage everything that you're supposed to be doing.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of those tips and tricks with us and for helping us to decode all of these workouts.

[Transition Sound Effect]

Vanessa Ronksley: All right, everybody, it is cool down time. Thank you so much for joining us all the way through to the end. We have been asking our audience to send us questions. Any means that you want to do that, whether you want to message one of us, or you want to click on the link on the podcast webpage to leave a voicemail. Reach out to us on social media, ask us your questions. So we have a submission here, from Matthew, and the question is on execution. So I'm reading this as if I am Matthew. This one is for you, Ryan. “Should I dial down the pace even more to keep my heart rate in check? I've been told to stick to the pace when pace is the session goal, but having my heart rate in Zone 3 for the majority of the long run does not seem ideal.” Now, I'm going to give you a little bit of background on this one. There was a lot more that was written, but I truncated a little bit. This person was struggling, specifically, with humidity and temperature, so that was affecting their ability to go back into that Zone 2. So what would you say to that? To make sure that someone's heart rate is kind of in tune with their pacing, or if it doesn't even matter at all? What do you think?

Ryan Tibball: It does matter. I want to get down to the bones of this question, because you mentioned that this particular workout was by pace. And being that it was a pace-setting goal of the workout, you're going to -- yes, your heart rate may be elevated, and I'll take into consideration the other factors you just mentioned -- but run at Zone 2 pace. And here's why. It's because on race day, you're going to be at the tail end of a race. You're going to be tail end of a run, whether it's a triathlon or a running race, your heart rate's going to be elevated. You're going to be in that zone that maybe it's not the zone you wanted to be in, or maybe it's a higher zone, for example, but you have this opportunity now, while this is a pace-set workout, to maintain pace, even though your heart rate is elevated outside of Zone 2, when it says remainder of time in Zone 2 pace. Now, to address the humidity and temperature piece of it, one thing is, this time of year, obviously, we're getting cooler, now, depending upon when this airs. But the fact is, I live in Texas. So it's really important to make sure that you are, when you're going out for your run, that you are changing the time of your workout so that it's taking into account the temperature, humidity, elevation, too. And so it's adjusting your pace zones appropriately. Now, that might line up better, in this particular workout, if those were adjusted, too. Not to say it would guarantee that. The other factors are hydration, fueling, pre-hydration. So these can affect your heart rate directly. Absolutely. If you haven't fueled right, you haven't hydrated right, you haven't done these ‘pre’ things right, that can affect it, too. I'm going to go even further. Maybe your aerobic capacity hasn't been as strong as it should be -- not yet. Not yet. So I want to keep it positive, guys. Not yet. But when you have those Zone 2 heart rate runs, that's all Zone 2, that's where you focus on making sure your heart rate stays exactly where it needs to be, regardless of pacing. If that causes you to walk, walk. Keep that heart rate exactly where it needs to be. And you're going to see that translate over to these runs that have these intervals and then the remainder of time in Zone 2, and you're going to start seeing your heart rate and your pacing lining up. Always envision the finish line, guys. And Matthew, your heart rate's going to be elevated as you get there. And so just envision that day that you're gunning for that finish line, and this will all pay off in the end.

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